We don’t get to vote for a target, just a direction in which to ever so slightly turn. When far off course, every choice will continue to lead in the wrong direction, but over time those small corrections will add up. Hopefully.
Well, meme, not just not voting, but actively using their energy to attack their allies and help fascism spread.
To my disappointment, all I see from the self-appointed “real left” are people stubbornly trying to get US members to stop voting for the Democratic Party. And dunking on liberals ten times before they say one bad thing about reactionaries.
There could be so much good tankies could do, but instead, they aid the fascists. They treat the ongoing genocide as a just a convenient issue to drive a wedge between progressives. When China was committing genocide on the Uyghurs, tankie spaces on Reddit were talking it down and passing around Chinese propaganda memes. The ongoing genocide by Russia in Ukraine seems fine, too, if not even largely met with approval.
I hope some of those pulled into this web and led astray will yet wake up and use their energies for something positive. For example, there are already states that have adopted ranked choice voting, which will let everyone vote, even for a fringe party, without risking a fascist takeover. It will show, black on white, how many progressives there are that would want politicians to move left. If it was to kick off, it is almost guaranteed to topple the current status quo.
Yeah but the world will know about their adorable little “protest vote” and how Biden just didn’t “do it” for them.
That will be our nation’s epitaph.
Not voting because bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe, even after the goddamned 2016-21 dark ages, is the leftist version of anti-vaxx anti-mask. Too many people seem to be equally lazy plus self-centered equals stupid, in all directions.
Whether it’s about putting a piece of cloth on your face or voting, they’re special; above it all; they know what the truth is, and we’re the dumb ones for not seeing it, we’re the dumb ones for doing something, for choosing a path of effort/inconvenience/civic duty instead of inaction. And we are the mindless herd to them.
EDIT: Then you tell them that republican and russian troll farms are flooding their discussions, concern trolling about genocide while russia itself is invading Ukraine with genocidal intentions, with the explicit intent to get them to not vote because they are manipulable in bad faith, and do they seem to care?
Tbf there is also a certain extent of legit lefty anti-mask anti-vaxx sentiment,
Over there it’s less about pseudo-science (at least until you get the california crunchy moms who believe in crystal healing) and more about how the US medical establishment can’t be trusted for one reason or the other.
“Everyone who doesn’t agree with me 100% is either an idiot, lazy, self-centered, and/or the enemy,” the true mark of a thriving democracy. Democrats can pat themselves on the back with that one all the way to a loss at the polls, then bust out their best surprised Pikachu face and blame leftists again when it turns out their unpopular platform of saying, “Well, we’re marginally less shit than the other guy!” doesn’t transform into a win.
I know this is uncharted territory, but perhaps Democrats could try being a bit less shit, rather than constantly punching left? Zero pressure on Democrat candidates to not be absolute trash, and then you have the gall to act surprised that people aren’t tripping over themselves to back them when their platform is less than inspiring. If you guys put half the effort into whipping your preferred candidates into shape rather than brow beating anyone who dares criticize them, your bullshit hand wringing about evil, stupid leftists would be entirely unnecessary.
Removed by mod
No, no, you see, none of that matters because it happened to the disadvantaged. Only the opinion of masturbatory left-LARPing circlejerks online matter.
And no leftists are disadvantaged, of course.
Well they can’t be, of course, leftism is only for ivory tower intellectuals, and the disadvantaged are assumed to be dumb inbred racist neofascist hillbillies.
“bUt gEnOciDe tHo!”
This delay?
This isn’t about a difference in political opinion it’s about encouraging not voting.
You can choose non-participation and you can fool yourself that it washes your hands but it does not stop the status quo, in fact it encourages it.
I’ll vote but I’ll vote third party
You guys will get pissed at that too
Democrats haven’t done shit for decades now. Every single time they come in, it’s a little glitter on top of the steaming shit pile left by the republican counterpart, and then the same old stuff as them, just with different words. Doesn’t matter which party is in the White House, both of them are bought out completely by fossil fuels, tech, pharma, and all the other main industries. The Democrats are not a left wing party, they are a center right party that has been drifting ever more towards the right.
If their only running point is that they’re not as bad as the republicans, well honestly, they have shown that to not be true. The same things that would have happened under the republicans is happening under the Democrats. Joe Biden is the one calling people who protest against genocide anti semites. He’s the one okay with the national guard and heavily militarized police beating up and arresting American citizens because they protest another country having exorbitant power here.
How is that different from Trump saying the same thing when Democrats were upset about Russia? How are you all okay with another country blatantly directing America’s leaders? And buying our politics?
If you guys can only ever dream of two choices, when literally half the western governments have more than two choices and have to form coalitions, that’s your own failing. The two party system was always broken that’s why even George fucking Washington warned against it 250 odd years ago.
But if you want a third choice you’re gonna have to vote for one. And telling everyone they should stick their head in the sand and only vote for two pieces of a shit sandwich because it’s been like that for a while is cowardly. Dream of a better world, then make one. Don’t just dream of it and say ah well it’s out of reach.
Voting third party in this election is useless. All you would be doing is throwing your vote away.
This isn’t a one issue election. It’s a crossroads.
They say that about literally every single election
The standards have sunk so low it is staggering
What third party runner has any chance of winning the presidency?
Name one.By that logic you should never vote for a third party ever because the chances are low
By that logic you should never try to change anything or challenge the status quo because what’s the point.
People thought the divine right of kings was the only viable system for a thousand years too
This isn’t about a difference in political opinion it’s about encouraging not voting.
So you claim, but every time someone questions Democrat doctrine, or dares suggest maybe they ought to change policy, you lot pop up screaming “But what about Trump!?!?” and equating any criticism of Biden to advocating non-voting, or better yet, claiming everything is some sort of false flag to try and prime the chances for Trump to win. Nobody can legitimately have a different opinion.
You have no real path to actually get the Democrats to change course, no reason for any of us to believe we won’t be in this exact same situation in another four years with you running around like chickens with your heads cut off, and anyone who dares say, “Well, gee, guys, maybe we should do something other than the same old garbage that hasn’t got anyone optimistic about a Democrat outside Obama in the last 30 years,” you have a dozen accusations to levy against them to dismiss any points they raise. But yeah, we’re all just supposed to believe that it’s going to be anything other than more of the same centrist Democrats proceeding to do fuck all of what them claim they will the second they hear they won another election.
Of course they ought to change policy. But how stupid is your solution to this that you’d rather let something far worse take over? It’s just so obviously dumb that it had to have come from the disinformation campaign packaged in a smart sounding way because no sane leftist would settle on this conclusion on their own.
“If you do the same thing we’ve asked you to for decades, we promise it’ll be different this time,” is a take so stupid, it must be some sort of disinformation campaign, because no sane Democrat would be stupid enough to think this would convince people. Continuing to run the same, tired plays over and over again and expecting that nobody will realize that they’re full of it is just asinine tactics on their part.
no one is promising it will be different. it just won’t be worse. but I can see how that’s so hard to understand for someone such as yourself who struggles with basic logic.
So instead of suggesting that you interact with the political apparatus at the Congressional level and actually take some action your solution is too just to do nothing?
I think voting third party is viable when it comes to local elections/electing Congress people and senators. When it comes to the president, it is much much less viable. If you want a third party president to be viable, you must first build up that third party’s power and at the same try to prevent a fascist takeover so that third party power buildup can be sustained. Building up the power of a third party takes decades of work. Further third party power can be amassed through implementation of ranked choice voting, which takes time to implement as you need to get multiple states to agree to it first.
I’ve had this conversation with my SO. Technically speaking the best move for me as a white male would be to support Trump. Instead I vote for Democrats hoping for positive changes for all people. For most of my life I’ve thought I was “far left” for American standards, but since I’ve joined portions of Lemmy and Reddit you’d think I was a fucking Republican.
Certain portions of the left would rather spit in their own eye for unrealistic principles, even if it means that a worse alternative is the result.
Technically speaking the best move for me as a white male would be to support Trump.
That’s a bold assumption.
How would it be beneficial? We are running head first in an existential crisis, where Trump and the GOP want to put a full stop on everything that tries to fight that. And yes no country with a significant emissions footprint is doing enough, far from it. I’m convinced that we’ll live in more or less dystopian scenarios within the next 20-30 years. And if I didn’t have children I wished these days would come really soon, so all those ignorant MFers would have to live in it.
It’s directly beneficial in the short term. The statement obviously needs some caveats like the world coming to an end as a result of Trump’s reelection, but in general Trump policies are generally going to directly benefit the middle, upper middle, and upper class white people more than Biden’s policies.
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DEI is good for society, but it doesn’t add money to my pocket.
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Social Security is probably going to be gone by the time I can collect it, so cutting Social Security means I keep more money now.
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I don’t have kids so cutting education funding or making it private would save me money.
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I have a job with great insurance, cutting medicare/medicaid would save me money.
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Global warming and emissions are a huge deal, but no truly meaningful progress is being made with Biden or the rest of the world. If you believe an apocalyptic scenario is the outcome of the current state of things, and we accept that that is inevitable, then why make things harder for myself now? It’s like being in a burning house with one person running around with a glass of water and another guy getting out his lighter to light a joint.
Strictly speaking, if we take “everything is going to literally end” off the table as an outcome of a second Trump term then most likely his policies are going to be more directly beneficial to me.
Thankfully I don’t feel this way, a rising tide lifts all ships, and we shouldn’t look only to next quarter’s profits. However, the far left shouldn’t bark and bite at people helping advance their agenda for not doing it fast enough, it just alienates the altruistic people who want to help.
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Social media in general loves controvery. So they push radical ideas, as they create conversation, clicks and other interactions, which means more time on the site. That then allows for more ad money.
The truth is most Americans are not that radical, due to just not caring too much about politics. They just want things to keep going as they are.
The other part of it is none Americans on social media. For Europeans for example Biden looks center right for the most part. Then again Europeans have options further left.
The other part of it is none Americans on social media. For Europeans for example Biden looks center right for the most part. Then again Europeans have options further left.
My biggest beef with Europeans is the military spending discussion and immigration. Yeah, it would be nice if we cut military spending and used it to better our own society. Yeah, it would be nice to move to a country with affordable housing, public transportation, great education systems, etc.
Norway, Finland, and Belgium have great policies for their citizens, but combined have less than a million troops (active and reserve), spend less than $20 billion each year, and only let in 254k immigrant per year (50k Finland, 39k Norway, and 165k Belgium). In contrast the US has 2.6 million immigrants per year.
It’s like NIMBY, pull the ladder up behind you, and leopards ate my face all had a threesome.
Voting for someone who is less bad is harm reduction. You can do harm reduction, while loudly proclaiming that it fucking sucks there’s not a better option, and working to provide better options.
I hate Biden. But I hate (and fear) the prospect of a second trump term more.
When Trump wins the election, and in four years time we have another election just like always, will the liberals finally have the honesty to shut the fuck up with the “if [current republican] wins, it’s the last election ever!” bullshit?
Any rising fascism inside the US pales in comparison to the actual fascism that is and has been its foreign policy. And that’s bipartisan consensus.
Hey everyone, remember when white leftists were on about how they’re the only ones that actually take the threat of fascism in america seriously?
America is already a fascist country, when it comes to its foreign policy. If you’re worried about fascism internally in the future then you should also be worried about “foreign policy” right now, but who cares about being complicit in the war machine as long as you get healthcare right?
I’m not American, but I am fascinated by the cognitive dissonance it takes for these People who claim to be progressive to chart a path that clearly puts Trump in office while claiming they’re fighting for the very people that Trump has already banned from being in America.
Trump would be bad for America and for the world, but a part of me wants to see y’all elect him again, just out of curiosity. The stupidity knows no bounds.
Seriously. Pro-Palestinian so they’ll let Trump win? Do they think a man who instituted a “Muslim ban” (Trump’s own words) is going to side with them?
The bastard moved the embassy to Jerusalem for fucks sake. He gave more funding to Israel than any other president. Trump would gleefully fund genocide just to hurt leftists and reward his evangelical base.
I think there is anti-Western psyops (I don’t want to say Russian or Chinese because who knows if either or both are doing it) going on with emphasising not to vote Biden and keep calling him “genocide Joe”, even though Trump is far more supportive of Israel in his last presidency. I have seen the rhetoric of genocide Joe and “left should not vote he him for supporting Israel” even in some seemingly centrist comments, which happens to be pro-Russia at the same time and those commenters are suspiciously new, or the account had aged out only to post months later after signing up. This is just too much of a coincidence.
If this is a Russian psyops, it is obvious why because Trump is ideologically (perhaps financially) aligned with Putin, and Trump being back into the White House will gut the aid to Ukraine. Trump himself said he will force Ukraine to accept the territorial losses from the invasion and threatened to pull US out of NATO.
Anyone who keeps saying not to vote for Biden because of his support for Israel is either psyops agent or fell into the propaganda, which in turn is only helping the disinformation propagandists.
The left calls him Genocide Joe for supporting Israel, the right calls him Jihad Joe for supporting Palestine. Environmentalists hate how domestic oil and gas production have gone up, fossil fuels enthusiasts hate his investments in renewable energy. So many people in news bubbles that are mad at Biden.
The “muslim ban” policy first started with Obama.
I mean I think most of the time the people who are doing that aren’t necessarily progressives. They’re just people who cared enough to vote before against trump but now just feel like nothing has really happened. Sure things haven’t gotten worse but they also haven’t really gotten better. So they checkout of politics all together cause what’s the point in voting if nothing really changes.
Again, I’m not American, but I can’t believe that any American could claim that. Nothing has changed from Trump to Biden. It’s absolutely obvious there’s been a wholesale change in how America is viewed globally. There’s been a change in the economy for the better and the American president isn’t in the news for saying something foolish everyday.
It’s crazy that people would say nothing has changed.
I’ll give my two cents on why I won’t for Biden. Simply put, foreign policy doesn’t matter the president. So for me its about punishing an incumbent to possibly set precedence moving forward that supporting genocide won’t get you re-elected.
So your single issue temper tantrum is worth not only making things FAR worse for Palestine, but sacrificing democracy for America as well….
That’s some big brain decision making bud.
I’m not sacrificing democracy. I’m simply not willing to vote for someone who’s helped commit genocide. Fyi, people said the same thing about trump last time he was elected but here we are. Democracy in America is already broken.
> I’m not sacrificing democracy.
By refusing to vote, you absolutely are. No matter how you try and reason this away, or whatever forums you go to where people tell tou how to respond to this accusation… you ABSOLUTELY are.
We are DEEP into this. We know what Trump intends to do, and we know there are people with the authority to carry out his plans. You won’t get to claim ignorance when this shit falls apart. If the margins are tight enough, yes…. it WILL be your fault.
People lives depend on this man. This isn’t a fucking joke.
If foreign policy “doesn’t matter the president” why are you trying to punish a president over a foreign policy issue. By your logic isn’t Biden not actually responsible?
Because maybe you can set precedence going forward. So presidents and elected officials will know it’s a red line they don’t step over if they want to get re-elected. Biden is responsible because he can choose not to support Israel but he does. He’s complicit in genocide and apartheid. So have past presidents been.
But you’re rewarding a different bad behavior with your inaction. I hope you realize that.
I’m not rewarding genocide. Imagine biden gets re-elected, walks right into the white house and says, “guys I can get re elected even after committing genocide. I helped slaughter 30k+ innocent civilians including women and children and it didn’t even change my election chances” yeah no.
If you can legally vote. And you help trump win by not voting for the only guy that can beat him, you are helping to enable Trump into office and thus commit a hell lot more genocide.
How would they know that? Why wouldn’t they take the opposite lesson, and assume that Biden losing is because of opposition to perceived liberalism in the Biden administration and support of Trump’s alt-right policies?
Because that’s certainly what Trump’s gonna be claiming in his victory speech. “Today we won a great victory over the woke leftists who want to poison our blood…”
Because we have groups in states such as Michigan which are very pro palestine and anti war. If not many vote for Biden then they’ll know. Polls can always be conducted later asking people why they didn’t vote for someone or voted for someone else.
Oh yes, what a fruitful exercize, asking people defined by their refusal to answer an opinion poll to answer an opinion poll!
This will definitely be top priority at DNC headquarters as Trump begins arresting them for being socialists!
But Trump also supports this genocide so what the fuck lesson are they supposed to learn when he wins
“The charting of a path that clearly puts Trump in office” is the accusation from those opposing progressive or leftist policy.
The argument from progressives is “Support of Israel’s genocide is unconscionable and unpopular amongst the American electorate so continuing that support and ignoring the electorate should not be acceptable.”
And they’re fucking morons for trying to push that line.
“I don’t like Biden not being tough enough on Genocide, that’s why I’m choosing the path that makes even more genocide more likely!”
That is not the position of someone who takes their own causes as seriously as those causes deserve, that is the position of a whiny privileged little shitstain looking for any reason they can find why they’re actually morally superior to you for not being able to be assed to stand in a line for a day at most and check some boxes.
as seriously as those causes deserve,
Look, I am not going to ignore that you’re responding to your own made-up quote but I’ll bite: ‘What does the Palestinian cause deserve?’
No protesting or political leveraging by privileged little shitstains, obviously.
I don’t have a problem with people protesting for Palestine, I have a problem with the people who are obviously going to stop the day after the voting closes.
What’s needed is to identify the people encouraging Biden’s moves to condition aid to Israel and spotlight them, give them a bigger platform among Biden voters, and to deplatform the advocates trying to counter that encouragement .
Continued protests, even disruptive protests occupying college campuses, but definitely not responding to a college trying to unfurl the US flag by projecting “Genocide Joe” onto it, there’s a difference between disruptive protest and abjectly unhelpful antagonism.
Fair point. However:
Biden’s moves to condition aid to Israel
Do you believe Biden would have ever made those moves without those protests?
Or perhaps, even, the leverage of people’s votes might have played a role?
I am not so sure he would have made any move to condition aid without this disruption and threat.
I mean: Biden was pretty damned adamant against a ceasefire, but called for one less than a month after he got hit with Uncommitted primary votes. So I think there is some kind of relationship there at least worth crediting.
No, leveraging votes on it didn’t do anything but show who was confident that they’d be fine when a second Trump Presidency brought the genocide here too.
I’ll give you a hint, it is not the Palestinians who also live here in America because we have our own diaspora that also live other places from the homeland.
My dead kin are not a fetish prop to hand us over to the Trump Brand Morality police because being Arab is now defined as antisemitism.
I keep seeing that scene from What If where Killmonger murders Stark, “The difference between you and me, is that you can’t see the difference between you and me.”
First time I watched it I thought it was just Killmonger being meaninglessly vague to platitude his way to justifying his actions, but then I came back online and witnessed the absolute amount of white “leftists” proudly showing their entire asses declaring that they truly could see zero differences between Republican and Democratic administrations and legislative terms.
These people don’t have a deeply held principal that guides their decision to threaten letting things get exponentially worse. They either have an abject ignorance to what they’re threatening to the people for whom the difference is life and death, or they have an abject cynicism that causes them to see that threat as the entire point to rob the disenfranchised of the chance to define an American progressivism that isn’t led exclusively by bougie white college kids.
They accuse people who call them out of being “vote karens” but they’re the ones threatening PoC, Religious minorities, Women, and Queer folks to make the DNC’s manager speak with them.
We would L O V E to see these little snots devise a means of protest that actually puts the consequences on the old white boomercrats who run the party right now. The problem is that they time and time again fucking refuse to do it because putting the work in to become a primary force that can eject party members who step out of line isn’t as satisfying as terrorizing queer folks with “it says “class solidarity” or it gets the Republicans again!”
BTW this isn’t even the first time this level of cynicism has been employed by the white left, in the 20s and 30s a major strategic goal of the American socialist movement was to attract enough black members that if fighting broke out they’d last long enough as a collective magnet for white conservative rage for the white socialists to achieve some sort of victory scenario. You may have seen similar sentiments in this thread and others like it where especially mask off white “leftists” call for a culling or WWIII or all but outright say that Black folks, women, religious minorities, and queer folks are outside the “Working Class”, basically mask offing on being fascists that use “The Working Class” as an innuendo for “The Race” or “The Nation”
They don’t see us as partners in solidarity, they see us as meat shields who need to shut up and be grateful they even pretend to care about our interests when they show up for the photo-op rallies and marches, and how dare we use their own language of solidarity to ask them for the herculean labor of standing in line and form filling a ballot, maybe flipping it over to check if there’s public referenda on the docket this year.
Vote witholding is a tool of privilege wielded by those who know they can ignore the consequences of either outcome. It is Reagan looking his “friend” in the eye and giving no fucks about the AIDs epidemic he was dying from because he knew he was unlikely to catch it himself and that it was a useful political wrench to do what he already decided he wanted to do anyways.
Well it is perfectly fine to believe Biden would have called for a ceasefire or conditioning aid to Israel on his own accord without any political pressure.
It is unconscionable. It’s not unpopular.
There is now an entire generation of young people entering the political world for the first time who are learning just that.
because it makes them feel good, and apparently that grants them immunity somehow.
For the record, i’m not voting, fuck this shit. Yall can fuck around and find out, i’ll just be finding out.
Just announcing your privilege from the hilltops to demand us lowlies who’ll be the ones actually facing the consequences bend the knee to your interests harder.
your privilege
my privlege? I mean yeah literally it is my privelege, it’s quite literally a right that i have. Being a citizen of the united states.
What makes you think i want to be a part of society, engaging with the system? The system fucking hates me. Why should i do anything for it?
If you’re legally eligible to vote, please vote.
i’ll get around to it eventually.
Just gonna add you to the list of who I’ll be blaming for getting Trump elected. It’s be nice to be able to show you the error of your ways when that happens, but we both know you’re going to disappear and then reappear rerolled as a victim of Trump and his dictatorship along with the rest of us that told you it would happen.
sure, feel free. I literally won’t have done anything at all.
But feel free. And just for the record, if shit does get fucked to a point where it substantially effects me i’m principled enough to take the out when i’m given it.
So you’ll only deal with shit when it affects you personally.
Got it.
Glad you could publicly admit you don’t give a rats ass about the rights of others when you can whine about a single-issue online to complete strangers in the off-chance someone might think you look cool.
Glad you could publicly admit you don’t give a rats ass about the rights of others when you can whine about a single-issue that makes you look cool.
yeah because that’s literally up to everybody else voting? You don’t like it you can vote lmao.
Frankly i’m concerned about empowering other people to utilize their own rights to empower themselves to be the person that they should be, rather than yelling at the government about the fact that “we don’t have rights” although a very real problem. Not really my space of concern at the moment. I’d rather literally defend someone, over figuratively defending them.
Frankly, if you don’t vote- it doesn’t matter what you’re concerned about.
Someone will be elected no matter how deep you bury your head in that hole. At least some of us have the balls to try and protect those that will be hurt by a Trump victory.
Staying home and pouting is easy.
But your lot likes easy, don’t they.
Frankly, if you don’t vote- it doesn’t matter what you’re concerned about.
yeah, which would probably be why i’m less concerned about policy and voting, and more concerned about individuals.
But your lot likes easy, don’t they.
i don’t like easy, i like funny. And this is probably the funniest thing i can think of doing right now on a global scale. Like you said, it’s my loss.
What childish nonsense. Your answer to this issue is sit it out and go “HAHA, I didn’t vote for him!” and then sit here and complain that things are not getting better for you. The democratic process will not fix itself if you don’t vote.
Yea, why even show up to comment here? Look at this edge lord over here folks.
cuz sometimes having bad opinions is healthy.
and then sit here and complain that things are not getting better for you.
where did you pull this out of your ass from? I literally did not for one fucking second gloat about how my life sucks?
Actually what the fuck are you smoking
The democratic process will not fix itself if you don’t vote.
yeah, i know, i kind of sort of explicitly recognized that in the very last sentence of my post.
On one hand, you have people who are mostly comfortable with letting Palestinians die. On the other, people who openly talk about nuking them.
You have a group of people who may be willing to throw minorities under the bus. And you have another group that is waiting for the opportunity to do so and make it law.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other. It sucks, but you have to accept that it’s the way it is for now and you are not going to pull some third party out of your ass. That is going to have to wait for now. You have to make a decision between the lesser of two evils.
I’m counting on you, Americans. As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
Quite frankly, I can’t think of a more terrifying thought, but it is what it is.
Don’t fuck this up. Please.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump’s last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs. Attacking your community, immigrants, and the poor bc the US had someone spouting shit daily and being racist/anti immigrant was openly supported. It is like a virus, it spreads.
I hope we crush is attempt to be president again but you never know. We need the young people and millennials to vote. It’s hard though.
Stay safe and I hope we have a bright future to look forward too.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump’s last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs.
If you argument is that US presidents set global trends than see exhibit a) Palestinians for the future of how the U.S. and other western countries will treat their citizens and how institutional power will utterly deny it the entire time.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
Are you worried about Biden winning? This is not even a question. Understand everything you wrote there is 1000x worse under trump. The things you’re talking about fixing can only happen under Biden.
Seriously, it’s no joke that it’s exactly the same message as russian propaganda to say ‘biden loves genocide, don’t vote’. If anyone thinks that’s actually the path to a better tomorrow they’re useful idiots.
new era of violence is being normalized
I dunno it seems pretty much the same as the old era of violence to me, where Israel was still occupying the region and still doing a genocide and a million Iraqis died in a meaningless war for oil rights to avoid gas prices climbing by 5 bucks
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
I agree we have a lot of issues but we can fix them if we decide to. I could agree that the Vietnam war / civil rights period was worse. We pulled ourselves out of that but we failed to learn from it. People got complainant and money started to flow so everyone accepted it.
By not voting we will see something worse. The Republicans have said multiple times they want to wipe the Palestinians off the earth. They want Russia to succeed in Ukraine. Civil rights wiped away. The environment set on fire. That is a lot worse than now.
Putting our hands up and saying nothing can be done is a farce. By doing nothing we are complicit. Vite like people’s lives are on the line bc they are. Next election vote for a local candidate with more “extreme”(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans…etc) views. That is how you change stuff. You keep doing that until the top is like the bottom.
Next election vote for a local candidate with more “extreme”(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans…etc) views. That is how you change stuff.
Is that how the United States was created?
The United States was created because there was no democratic representation for the US colonies in Britain’s parliament, genius.
Is there democratic representation for the working class in an oligarchy like the United States?
“I failed my High School Civics class on purpose” energy in this question.
Those things you mention WILL GET WORSE under Trump.
Not voting Biden is a vote for Trump. Your protest WILL fuck things up.
Get off your high horse and vote Biden.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other.
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
We need to vote for the boiler and hope we can convince him not to turn up the heat again.
But also, if we’re in bright red or blue states voting has no impact on the end result. It’s just a way to wash our hands of the guilt of supporting the other guy.
As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
That’s crazy, because I assumed you could also vote and that voting was the only real solution.
Are American votes now the only votes that matter?
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
No.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people, and people that want to do things but cannot due to the another group.
The other group is consisting of outright vile people that get off of other people’s suffering, religious fanatics that need some “noble lies” about things like trans people otherwise “they’ll throw away eternal happiness of the afterlife for the temporary happiness of this life”, and “good willing conservatives” that are fooled by the meaning of the word and think “even if all this turns out to be real hatred, the next government can just unlegislate the law”.
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough “good willing conservatives” to vote for them. We no longer can “unvote” them, for another government to “unlegislate” horrible laws, and no government will unsteal money stolen by Fidesz oligarchs, unexpel kids from high school because Fidesz lowered the education age, and undo the countless other harm caused by them.
I don’t think a “world wide worker’s revolution” is coming. If it’s coming, it’ll be in current China style, and I got enough of mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking. If it will be somehow good, it still can’t undo the harms of the current system. And if the rise of Nazism didn’t lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg, I doubt the current rise of fascism will lead to anything like that, and leftist movements can be easily crushed by a police state in their cradles. Hell, all they need is widespread alcoholism and overwork, like in Hungary where they weaponize doomerism.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people
Sadly, the Pete Buttigiegs and Krysten Sinemas of the world are fiercely competent in their pursuit of climbing up the political ladder and cashing out at the public’s expense.
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough “good willing conservatives” to vote for them. We no longer can “unvote” them
The former paved the way for the latter. Perestroika opened the gates to the neoliberal barbarians, and when they were done looting the country it was ripe for a fascist revival. Every “we have to vote for the lesser of two evils” concession accumulated a bit more evil. And what you’re left with is a mafia in place of a government precisely because compromise after compromise whittled away everything the country had going for it.
I don’t think a “world wide worker’s revolution” is coming.
I don’t think Biden wins this next election. Not for all the screaming and left-shaming and "but Trump is worse"ing on the internet. Biden’s 2020 coalition is hemorrhaging conservatives as fast as its hemorrhaging college leftists. He can’t win Arizona, Nevada, or Georgia a second time now that he’s pissed away domestic good will on hundreds of billions in foreign military aid.
And if the rise of Nazism didn’t lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests. She was arrested by the Freikorps and tortured before their execution. This was the year before the formation of the NSDAP. The leaders of the Shanghai Commune of 1927 suffered a similar fate under Chiang Kai-shek eight years later. It was Luxemburg’s death, and the exile of Zhou Enlai, that heralded the ascension of the then-modern fascist movement.
This occurred under moderate governments. One might even call them Bidenesque. They cleared a path for the fascism that swept through China and Germany over the next decades under ostensibly liberal democratic rule.
What we’re seeing in Palestine and Ukraine and Argentina and India - and reflected in Columbia and UCLA and UT@A, via a militant police backed by far-right local militias - is a tide of fascism that won’t be stopped by a bunch of liberal enablers. Hundreds of Rosas are dying to Israel bombs. Hundreds more are being rounded up and brutalized by American police. They’ll keep appearing, because this amount of pain and fear is intolerable, and has to be resisted at all costs.
And if you think that resistance to fascism amounts to
mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking
then I gotta question what you’re going to do now that fascism is on your doorstep.
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests.
Funny way of saying “Quelling an armed uprising that Rosa Luxemburg herself had voted against”, but honesty isn’t your strong suit, I know.
Funny way of saying
Joe Biden killed Rosa Luxemburg.
Here I thought it was Bernie Sanders.
and that voting was the only real solution.
lmao
Just because you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution doesn’t mean the rest of us just believe the exact opposite. What are you, in grade school?
you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution
It can only be a solution in a state with a functional democracy. Texas does not have that.
All I hear is complaints. Why not aim some of your misgivings towards a solution instead of screeching constantly?
All I hear is complaints
All I hear is “vote harder” and “leftists did this”, from a state where Biden is down 20 points.
Why not aim some of your misgivings towards a solution
Ask me that on the HISD picket line.
the american votership is very emotional. they don’t think about the future. they vote how we feel right now.
hence why we are like this. biden will lose if the is a economic downturn, for example.
Nah. I voted for the lesser evil my whole life and the DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people.
Burn it all
that’s nice if you actually burn anything. if you just don’t vote then you’re just going to get stomped by fascists. either you actually commit to that level of action or you get rolled by those that do.
that’s just an empty welcome to the fascists of it’s not backed by meaningful planned action. the only way what you said will work is of you’re ready to fucking go the second trump wins. he’s not leaving otherwise. so either you’re in a militia or you’re pathetic and part of the problem.
amen. that’s why the left is so bad, politically, and the right is, well better. they whine but keep voting. the leftists just whine and do nothing and get mad that the guy they didn’t vote for didn’t win.
Literally every grievance they have can be answered with “well then why didn’t you vote in <X primary/off year election> where a candidate who would have answered that grievance if not built momentum towards one who would was running?”
If they spent a percent of the energy voting that they did whining about why they don’t want to, Bernie would have won the 2016 primary handily, along with a slate of progressive challengers at his back.
DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people
I’m sorry which side of that debate says we should have counted donations instead of the actual votes?
All but outright saying “only the bougie white kids should count at the polls!” and yet somehow the DNC are the ones who are the threats to democracy and subverting the will of the people because they checks notes counted the ballots cast for all the candidates in the race.
Just about figures that the “voting bad!” screechers think that voting in the primary is somehow putting the fix in.
Burn it all
lmao
I guess it’s nice when you lot go mask off.
So you’re gonna sulk. Cool
If you want to burn it all, don’t be surprised if you end up burning down with it.
That’s how I felt in 2016.
We can all see how well that worked out. Never again.
No, no, I’ve been assured that Trump was no worse than any other president, it’s all the same, you see. Both Sides!
No matter who wins this November, Palestinians are still going to suffer from this genocide, because neither side is going to stop Israel. It’s not going to be better or worse with Trump, because those people are still going to be dead, and the only difference is how long they have to suffer before they die. Arguing over which death is more humane is shockingly immoral of us.
As Americans, we don’t get to absolve ourselves from that guilt by voting for Biden. We’re directly responsible for allowing our nation to come to the point where this is our only choices. Israel may be dropping the bombs, but it’s America that’s killing them. We’re voting for the lesser evil, but evil is still evil, it’s all the same, and you and I, and every other American, are guilty as hell for it. We’re all mass murderers, and we’re all sleeping soundly at night.
Because we voted for the lesser evil.
that’s… not how it works. your vote is not an endorsement. plenty of people will openly protest against support of Israel while voting for Biden. you can actually break it down to pragmatic logic instead of the entirely incorrect broad strokes that you have done.
also your take smells like bot farm propaganda.
Congratulations you’ve been re programmed by tiktok to think cheetoman is the same as sleepyjoe
Biden is actively sending more weapons to Israel right this moment. The difference between Trump and Biden is that Trump hasn’t gotten a chance to actively participate and support genocide yet, and Biden has not only done that, but continues to express unwavering support for that genocide. So you’re right, Biden and Trump aren’t the same. They might be, if Trump wins this November, but right now Biden is objectively worse.
yeah and? so what?
should i vote for the greater evil?
if kill 20 people, i might as well kill 2000 right, what’s really the difference?
it’s not going to be better or worse with Trump,
It’s not going to be better or worse with the guy who wants them to ‘finish the job’ and famously broke with even usual conservative orthodoxy to support Israeli genocide?
Whether it’s the guy who wants them to kill every Palestinian, or the guy who is gonna sit there and let them kill every Palestinian while wringing his hands and reaffirming the unconditional support for Israel, the Palestinians are still dead and murdered. The fact that you’re arguing that one side is better is absolutely fucking absurd.
Alright, what about the guy who is reducing US weapons aid to Israel vs. the guy who is in favor of INCREASING weapons aid to Israel?
Oh, what am I saying? Silly me, thinking policy has consequences.
And then…
Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say
https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-arms-gaza-ebe971ca8878ff430ce6458c04151585
Right? Is the “reducing US weapons aid to Israel” in the room with us right now??
Does that sound like a lot to you or something?
In what realm is 1 billion dollars not a lot of money? Also whether or not it’s “a lot” wasn’t even what the contention was about… OP said Biden was reducing weapons aid to Israel and the above comment proves that’s not true.
The fact that it’s even close is an indictment of the American people.
And they kept on voting blue and both parties kept on getting more reactionary and moving the center to the right ad infimum…
Yes, because our only two choices are to vote and not vote. Once we vote we can’t protest, spread information, build dual power structures, try to create progressive candidates, or do any other organizational efforts to try to shift the available candidates.
You get only one progressive action every 4 years.
/s
Who talked about action outside of voting? That goes without saying lol. You probably don’t want to understand what I mean, third party voting that is.
Okay, let’s say there’s only two parties A and B. In a first pass the post system. These are the only two parties that matter. If a 3rd party C is less popular than A or B, they don’t stand a chance. Also people whos preferences are in order C, B, then A. If they vote for C, they are voting for a candidate that cannot possibly win. They are effectively taking votes away from B giving A a higher chance to win.
This sucks but it is reality.
The only way to get C voted in is for C to become more popular than A or B. There is no amount of voting or not voting that can do this. Only organizing as I have mentioned before.
So to maximize your desired outcomes, you need to vote B so that A has less of a chance to win.
To put this in another way. By not voting or voting for C you are by consequence, increasing the probability your least desirable outcome comes to pass.
Again, this sucks and I wish it weren’t the case.
Now if you personally don’t want to vote, or you want to vote for C. That’s fine. It’s a free country. Please stop trying to make it sound like it’s some grand plan to solve all of the systemic problems we have. Because the outcome of going down this path is that A will have a higher probability of getting into power, and there will be consequences to that.
This is such childish logic lol. Why do you explain the most obvious argument ever to me? Do you think this hasn’t crossed my mind? It’s what every democrat voter says. It’s in fact the only argument in favour of the democrats I’ve been hearing for this election.
The truth however is that there comes a point when the lesser evil becomes evil. Just because party A is more evil, doesn’t take away from the fact that B is evil as well. It sucks to admit this, doesn’t it? So there are only two alternatives for this one. You either think that the biggest genocide and humanitarian crisis of the 21st century - for which they are as much responsible as Israel is - has been handled even remotely adequately by the Democrats or you don’t think it’s such a big deal to begin with. So which is it?
Do you have a conscience? Do you want to make them realize their atrocious actions have consequences? Or will you give them the vote that says I’m still ok with what you do? I don’t care about strategies, my votes are only based on my beliefs and who matches them the most.
Sorry about necroing this, I needed a break from the socials, but I really wanted to reply to you.
Why do you explain the most obvious argument ever to me?
I don’t know what you know or don’t know. I am happy you are well educated.
The truth however is that there comes a point when the lesser evil becomes evil.
See here is a good point from you which I missed in my original writeup. If the outcomes of both A and B are the same, then you should vote for C. The issue is that this almost never happens. Like we would need to have Trump vs a clone of Trump that is 5 minutes old. The issue with your “evil” argument is that what can be considered evil is very broad. Take this hypothetical:
Both A and B have supported genocide like Biden. A says they love it, they want to do more of it, they want to turn the US of A into the US of Genocide. B says that they regret it and that it was a bad move, and they wont do it again.
In this case, both A and B have supported genocide and are their for are both Evil. Even so, if you vote for C the outcome is that A is more likely to be elected. By your own definition, voting for C is an evil act.
Do you have a conscience? Do you want to make them realize their atrocious actions have consequences?
Are good things good and bad things bad? Yes. I feel like we are aligned in values, we just disagree about how to go about it.
Or will you give them the vote that says I’m still ok with what you do?
As we have discussed most voting is not approval it is picking the lesser of two evils. Most elections have been between a shit sandwich and a poop cupcake. Seems this election will be about the same.
I don’t care about strategies, my votes are only based on my beliefs and who matches them the most.
Ok great, then don’t comment. Your mad at me because you don’t have a strategy but want seem clever and make comments like “And they kept on voting blue and both parties kept on getting more reactionary and moving the center to the right ad infimum…”, and then you say your going to vote 3rd party, witch is against your own interests probably (Maybe your a Trumper). Then you get mad at me for explain basic voting strategy. I’m just trying to understand what happening and trying to help others who might not understand how the system works.
If you want to vote based on feelings and not outcomes, fine, keep it to yourself.
This is such a disappointing take honestly. Using A and B parties to make your argument sound more logical than it is. The Democrats have not in any shape or form regretted their actions, nor are they denouncing Israel and Netanyahu, Biden made his unwavering support for them abundantly clear after the ICC arrest warrant for him.
By my own definition voting C is definitely not an evil act, what kind of twisted logic is this? I don’t want to vote for a party that fully supports a genocide and has done nothing to reverse republican, neoliberal policies. I’m voting for someone that I believe will fix things and I think everyone should do the same if we want to see change at some point.
Like I’ve already said about the poopcake and shit sandwich and the lesser of two evils(you kind of say it yourself), at some point, both parties are so indistinguishable and so very far away from any ideal and vision that I have for the world, that my conscience doesn’t allow me to vote for them. Both are genocidal, both are neoliberal, dismantling the welfare state and increasing exponentially the profits of the 1%. If you vote for the lesser evil, it just means that you think one is at least a little bit satisfactory, to which I couldn’t be more opposed.
Why should I keep to myself my opinions on voting? Do you not like other people expressing their opinions and throwing shade on your beloved democrats? Why shouldn’t more people realize that both are extremely evil and bad and shouldn’t be supported? I am not mad because I don’t have a strategy, I am mad that people still support people committing and funding genocides first and foremost. I don’t get mad at your kindergarten logic that is the first thing that pops to anyone’s mind when they realize that maybe they shouldn’t vote blue. Why should you try to help others and not me? I’m not confused or mad, I know very well what I am doing.
Btw I explicitly said I am voting based on my beliefs and ideology and you try to reduce my criteria as “feelings”, as if anyone’s voting and beliefs are somehow detached from feelings or that I don’t use logic. Imagine thinking that supporting ideas and values you’ve extensively and carefully talked, read and thought about for years is somehow inferior to your highly sophisticated: blue no matter who.
I’ll say it once again to make it clear: our difference is very simply that you are satisfied with the Democrats in power, while I am not. Any problems that arise are just not a deal-breaker to you, while they very much are to me.
If we are to believe Biden at his word that Trump will attempt a fascist coup regardless of election results, why is he spending his time banning tik tok instead of truth social?
Vote or don’t but organize internationally
I’m not from the US, and no, I’m not feeling safer with liberal or not. Imperialism is pretty much the same. I don’t know what is worse, but I’m sure that in both cases, it would worthless if you have not a strong anti-imperialist and organized movement inside an international organization.
For example, my organization is in the ICL, like the IWW.
We support Biden because he is willing to be swayed by changing public opinion. Trump just doubles down on things people don’t support when confronted. That Trump voters see the left disagreeing with Biden and think “Oh, that means they won’t support him” just shows that they believe politicians views are fixed and unchanging.
