• Swordgeek
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    3917 hours ago

    As frustrating as this may be, it’s even more frustrating when I see exactly the same thing among PROFESSIONAL SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS!

    directory structure and basic text editing are foreign concepts to them. If it’s not in their IDE, they really don’t understand it.

    Also, 90% of them are hunt-and-peck two finger typists.

    • @PresidentCamacho@lemm.ee
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      1011 hours ago

      I typed hunt and peck for so long that I can hunt and peck with my eyes closed. Though technically I’m not hunting anymore, just pecking lol.

    • nek0d3r
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      1213 hours ago

      I’m honestly blown away by how many developers don’t even know the basics of git

        • nek0d3r
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          43 hours ago

          Yeah, some companies are very slow to adapt. One company I worked for was still using SVN. It was a nightmare lol, and when they did finally migrate to git, some of my coworkers were completely lost.

          But there’s also something to be said among developers I’ve worked with on hobbyist projects. Plenty of people who just shared files over and over, or just had it on Google drive or Dropbox

      • @Croquette@sh.itjust.works
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        510 hours ago

        Because a GUI makes everything a lot simpler. I only started understanding how git works the moment I dropped the GUI and had to resolves issues through CLI.

  • @MehBlah@lemmy.world
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    2218 hours ago

    It has always been this way. Part of my “age-driven degradation” is that I can see the same patterns repeating themselves often at odds with the age of the people in question. The average competency age always shift younger as any skilled profession does. I however am constantly having to show people that should have a newer skillset than me basic problem solving skills and somehow we can both read the same documentation and they not see the solution.

    • A Phlaming Phoenix
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      16 hours ago

      There was a post here a while back about how younger generations often don’t understand concepts like file system structures because concepts like that (which are still relevant in a lot of contexts) have been largely stripped out of modern user interfaces. If your primary computing device is a cell phone, a task like “make a nested directory structure and move this file to the deepest part of it” is a foreign concept.

      I guess my point here is that I agree with yours about this being cyclical in a sense. I feel crippled on a cell phone, but I’m also in my comfort zone on a Linux terminal. Using web apps like MS Teams is often difficult for me because their UIs are not things I’m comfortable with. I don’t tend to like default layouts and also tend to use advanced features which are usually hidden away behind a few menus. Tools built to meet my needs specifically would largely not meet the needs of most users. A Level 1 user would probably have a better experience there than a Level 3 like me. It’s hard (maybe impossible) to do UX design that satisfies everyone.

      • Setarkus.LW
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        115 hours ago

        Are the user levels an actual defined thing and are there more?

        • A Phlaming Phoenix
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          411 hours ago

          The article quotes extensively from the study about this and gives examples regarding what kinds of tasks qualify for those levels.

        • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          14 hours ago

          They defined it for the study.
          Obviously you’d find a level 3+ in many population groups but each would a fraction of the alrady small <10% level 3 population pool.

    • @morbidcactus@lemmy.ca
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      417 hours ago

      I have a large chunk of my colleagues who have little to no experience using CLI tools, and totally have found the last part to be true. In fairness, documentation is all over the place quality wise (I generally find Microsoft’s useful but I’ve totally had issues in the past with undocumented or vaguely documented features/dependencies). People will google their issues, and increasingly I’ve found it doesnt point you at the documentation directly, instead stack overflow or medium pages.

      I feel like there’s definitely some conceptual… Stuff for lack of a better word that’s an issue, I’ve seen a number of people focus on the execution instead of trying to understand what’s the issue and define it logically, when pressed they struggle to explain.

  • @szynaptic@lemm.ee
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    2824 hours ago

    I started noticing this 10 years ago. To me, this isn’t some new phenomenon. However, it feels even worse now than it did back then.

    The number one thing that makes me go JackieChanWTF.jpg is when people don’t even know how to navigate through directories.

    • @ahal@lemmy.ca
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      1616 hours ago

      It’s like a vicious cycle:

      1. People are tech illiterate
      2. Tech companies design things for the lowest common denominator.
      3. People don’t need to learn anything new and become even more tech illiterate

      AI is going to make it so much worse. You’ll soon be in the top 5% if you have a keyboard app installed on your phone.

      • @SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
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        614 hours ago

        You’ll soon be in the top 5% if you have a keyboard app installed on your phone

        …Those won’t go away, right? People aren’t going to start talking on the bus for their phones to auto-type the text messages they want to send through chat, right…?

    • @MehBlah@lemmy.world
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      918 hours ago

      You mean the twenty to thirty somethings that have come along. They have one folder with all their stuff in it and sometimes spend quite some time just looking for a file because they are unwilling to organize it or even sort it by file type.

      • Joelk111
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        816 hours ago

        I’m a 20-30 something (26) and, generally, I think it’s younger people who are starting to struggle with this (<21 maybe?). All of my classmates seemed to be OK at handling files. From what I saw in highschool and college it was more to do with computer hygiene than incapability.

        • WIZARD POPE💫
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          112 hours ago

          I am 22 and yeah I have some friends and some younger relatives that don’t know how to do that. It’s because they grew up with smartphones. I think we were one of the last generations (at least where I live) that smartphones only became prevalent after we were teenagers so using a computer for most things was still something we learned.

    • capital
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      2122 hours ago

      I post this a lot but it’s true. Younger people definitely have problems with this.

      https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z

      My aunt is a teacher and I remember when she started talking about how her school was getting Chromebooks I thought that wasn’t going to be good for learning how to use “real” computers. Same with phones and tablets. Everything is too abstracted away from the user so they never have to know what a directory is.

  • @antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    621 day ago

    I believe the most computer proficient people were born between 1975 and 1995. Before that and they were too old to figure it out without a lot of effort. After that they grew up with touch screens and it’s all just magic. Right in the middle we were able to grow along with advancements in computing.

    I was teaching a class with mostly students born after 2000. One of them had never used a computer with a keyboard and mouse. Never used folders and files. Kind of blew me away.

        • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          22 hours ago

          ?

          Btw the “>” at the beginning starts a quote.
          To prevent that put a \ before something like a * or >. Like this: \>. Hope I could help you :)

          • @RealM__@lemmy.world
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            148 minutes ago

            That is exactly what happened. I was trying to jokingly express anger at seeing my birth year being correlated with being tech-illiterate, so I typed a ‘>:(’ emoji, not realizing I needed an escape-character to avoid it looking like quote.

            Hope you get the same laugh out of it as I did lol

    • @DickFiasco@lemm.ee
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      1822 hours ago

      When I read “never used a computer with a keyboard and mouse” my first thought was “wow, they only ever used punched cards” until I realized you meant they only used touch screens.

    • @Wispy2891@lemmy.world
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      331 day ago

      I saw middle school students preferring to type a report on a fucking touchscreen rather than a pc with keyboard “because in this way is faster”. Then for some reason they share a fucking screenshot of the document instead of just attaching that to the email

      • @mitrosus@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1318 hours ago

        I have seen worse. Normie’s around me use their phone to capture photo of the laptop screen and send the low pixel photo with less than half part in it including the actual document.

        • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod
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          1016 hours ago

          When I ask for a screenshot I get a Word document with a picture in it about 10% of the time.

            • @afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              14 hours ago

              I was looking at a spec from another government contractor and of course it’s a scan because fuck me. While I am reading it I suddenly noticed that it was made by a typewriter.

              Never a great sign.

        • Swordgeek
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          1217 hours ago

          Really?

          The PDF contains the information. The screenshot contains a picture of the information.

          It’s a tree vs. a picture of a tree. A recording vs. a live performance.

          • @antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            -117 hours ago

            It’s possible to make a rasterized pdf - that would just be an image with specs for printing. I think teachers need to specify their expectations. Submit a plain text file? Submit a markdown document? Submit a Word doc? Is hand-written okay? What about a type-writer?

            A pdf is just a digital version of paper, and since paper is obsolete, the pdf is probably a bit archaic for somebody who has no intention of printing it.

            • ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє
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              16 hours ago

              PDFs are searchable, zoomable (i.e. don’t look like shit on high-res displays), are often much smaller, have nicer software for handling them (image viewers are usually not designed for this task), and so on.

        • @Wispy2891@lemmy.world
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          231 day ago

          I hate them so much when they do that. “I don’t know how to export pdf” - yet you know how to make screenshots which is a “secret” key combination that’s written NOWHERE on the ui.

          How it’s possible that they think that’s ok to send four separate emails (separate emails because they click on the screenshot preview on the bottom of the screen and share that) with a screenshot of each page instead of just the file? How they don’t think “wait, is it possible that there isn’t a better way?”

          • @webhead@lemmy.world
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            917 hours ago

            Yeah this is very much not that they don’t understand there’s a better way. It’s that they don’t care to look up how. It’s pretty common. People just go oh I don’t know computers and you get whatever random crap they could throw together with zero effort lol.

            • @afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              14 hours ago

              Remember my old bomer boss who insisted I use the office scanner to scan documents instead of my phone. Not because it was better but because he paid for a scanner and wanted to get his money’s worth.

    • @boonhet@lemm.ee
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      101 day ago

      Born in that time frame. Windows XP was just finicky as hell, no matter how much praise it got later. If you wanted your Internet to work you just had to flush the DNS cache or just disable and re-enable the interface occasionally. Hell, same for my mouse - occasionally had to use the keyboard to disable and re-enable the mouse drivers.

      Now shit just works. Only reason I’ve had to fiddle around so much in recent years is that I used Gentoo for a couple of years. Though by the time I was bored with it, it worked better than Windows XP ever did.

    • Pixel
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      191 day ago

      I was born in 98, my brother was born in 2000. The level of computer literacy just between the two of us is astounding. While a lot of my aptitude with computers stems from a personal interest, even growing up many of my peers were relatively tech savvy – as far as laypeople go. But people in my brother’s grade in school, people just two years younger than me, i noticed a meaningful difference in how they interact with computers vs how people I spent the formative years of my life around do. It’s insane.

      • @GiveMemes@jlai.lu
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        1022 hours ago

        I think for those of us that were born 2000 and later the amount of tech experience we have probably has a strong correlation with who was into PC gaming/modding as kids.

        • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          214 hours ago

          Most certainly.
          My higher computer literacy stems solely from personal interest.
          The IT education in school was basic office usage and other “normie” tasks. Not even typing classes…Still doing the 4,5 finger blind/hunt writing system.

      • @antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        131 day ago

        Hopefully my rough estimate of 1995 was not too exclusive. I’m sure there’s not a hard cutoff, and the same goes for pre-1975. But being right in the middle of that range, it was pretty cool to use the full spectrum of PCs, and all the game consoles, and see the internet bloom and explode and decay.

        • Pixel
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          41 day ago

          Oh I bet, and fwiw I think that’s a pretty good estimate of that bell curve – I’m just on the tail end of it, so I got to see an actual decline in tech literacy in the people literally in my immediate orbit. It was an interesting experience, for sure

    • @MeThisGuy@feddit.nl
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      323 hours ago

      we had typing class in elementary school circa 1995. that’s how I got to typing 150 wpm. almost useless now because of OCR, but still… sad to see computer skills lost these days.
      I see ppl typing with 3 fingers and you have 10 of them

      • @antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        719 hours ago

        I learned to type from instant messaging: ICQ and AIM. I know I did Mavis Beacon too but that was the practice that solidified it.

        • Captain Aggravated
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          617 hours ago

          Yeah they tried to teach me to touch type in middle school, but it was MSN messenger and using an internet-connected computer as a tool for socializing that got me to actually practice typing.

          A lot of those typing things start you off with “here’s the home row. Now type several strings of meaningless text. Okay, now we’ll let you type g and h in addition.” and then add one or two letters at a time to slowly build up typing skills. I’m the third fastest touch typist I know and I got that way hitting on coeds.

  • @MonkderDritte@feddit.de
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    2 days ago

    That reminds me: i once searching for jobs in the usual local aggregators, it didn’t have a link to the original offer nowhere, so i used developer console’s picker to figure the URL out. My mother: did you just hack the job page?

    Computers are magic and we are wizards because we understand more or less how it works.

  • @PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca
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    1362 days ago

    Nielsen and Norman group know what’s up. I learned this at my first office job. Everyone thought I was a wizard hacker when I showed them inspect element. I got in trouble with my director who flagged IT Security when I showed my team lead an inspect element on some intranet page. I had changed a title to something else as a proposal and they had thought I had hacked their intranet and changed it myself. Triggered a whole security incident.

    I thought everyone with a computer knew about this. I was wrong.

    • originalucifer
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      902 days ago

      i used to worked for a public school district, and i once pointed out a guys laptop was infested with porn popups (~2000). the cops investigated me for reporting it.

      • @PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca
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        482 days ago

        That’s absolutely fucking bonkers. I’m hoping that this didn’t cause you any lasting consequences at work.

      • deweydecibel
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        Need some more details here.

        A “guys” laptop? Like a student or a faculty member?

        Did you report it to the police or to the IT department or other faculty? Who were you in this school? Teacher?

        What do you mean by the cops “investigating” you? Like asking a few questions to get it on record? Or getting into your computer? Were they accusing you of something? Who called them in the first place?

        • originalucifer
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          292 days ago

          it was a volunteer in the building. his personal device… and he was like 80 years old. i reported it to the ‘room’ teacher, as im just an IT guy.

          the next thing i know, 2 detectives have me in a room questioning my knowledge of ‘lolita’. they really didnt like the fact that i pointed out this 80 year old guy was the victim of a drive-by popup storm on his laptop… common for the era.

          teacher->principal->cops->me for some reason

          i got nothing to hide, so whatevs

          the volunteer was told not to come back

  • ѕєχυαℓ ρσℓутσρє
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    2 days ago

    I teach math to undergrads, and damn it’s sad. They don’t know how to send a PDF file from their phone to laptop, and upload it to Canvas. One guy ended up emailing it to me. They don’t even know what a folder/directory is.

    • @LordCrom@lemmy.world
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      181 day ago

      Well, in his defense, I could save a file from 8 different applications and they end up in 8 different locations on my phone file system. You would think they would all go to Documents or Downloads…nope. apps dont let you pick locations, and if they do, you don’t get to pick anywhere you want

      • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        314 hours ago

        This sounds highly like an Apple FS issue.
        Don’t experience it nearly as much on my Android (Pixel 7).

        Still salty about the google file explorer.

        • @nexas_XIII@lemm.ee
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          110 hours ago

          Apple has a default share option of “Save to Files” where you can navigate where you want it saved. The default location is definitely application specific though.

    • @ian@feddit.uk
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      161 day ago

      Managing digital information today is a horrible mess of silos and big business driven incompatibilities. It often drives people to use PDFs, as there is nothing appropriate. Blame the software/businesses, not the victims/users.

    • @KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      61 day ago

      Honestly I use discord or email for that >.>

      Windows/iPhone doesn’t seem to have a great solution as far as I’ve checked.

      • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        114 hours ago

        The recent integration Apple did in their newest update is peak usability.
        Sadly it’s locked in the ecosystem.

          • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            212 hours ago

            My dream is the (earlier pre 2020s) openness of Android combined with the cohesion and design of Apple.

            Android truly is a magnificent clusterfuck like Windows but I still prefer that over someone like Apple defining where I can go and where not.
            For Android what is my main draw is that I can fuck around in the filesystem with apps like mixplorer and sideload apps at my own risk. The first part (this is all from the very limited time I had to fiddle with phones from clients) is impossible and the second has too many string attached as far as I am aware.
            Oh and I obviously spend money on some apps I would need to find replacements for and most likely pay again. The other points would need to be a strong contender to make me move entirely.

            But it’s very tempting.

            • @KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              211 hours ago

              Best of both worlds is a jailbroken iPhone, but it’s becoming nigh impossible these days. Sure, if you have an older phone it’s still possible with some caveats, but long gone are the days of a new model being jailbroken in a year, never mind a week.

              • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                110 hours ago

                Same with rooting.
                Sure it’s doable but outaide of special distros like lineageOS (community dev project to extend the longevity of phones and as an alternative to the OEMs flavor) and GrapheneOS (heavy privacy focus but pixel exclusive) I havent noticed or missed any major downsides I’d get from rooting my phone as I did in the past.

                Now all Google needa to do is glue the whope mess into a cohesive product without doing an Apple from A to Z.

        • @AppearanceBoring9229@sh.itjust.works
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          15 hours ago

          The only problem I see with KDE Connect is that you need to pair the devices. Works great if both are yours, but probably its not something you want leave with the default settings if its shared with someone else.

          • @thevoidzero@lemmy.world
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            112 hours ago

            Miniserve is a program for computers. Though you can run it in termux. It just opens a tiny server instance for file sharing, you can download/upload files to a directory directory. Will also show QR for the link.

    • @MonkderDritte@feddit.de
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      162 days ago

      They don’t know how to send a PDF file from their phone to laptop

      With USB cable? Because outside of that it gets complicated and/or vendor-specific quickly.

      • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        214 hours ago

        If you have the luck that Android prompts you if you want to enable file transfer or just charge your device.

          • @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            213 hours ago

            Afaik last time I connected my phone via USB I needed to pull down zhe notifications and there was a silent option offered to switch the type of USB connections.

      • @Wispy2891@lemmy.world
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        101 day ago

        With usb cable most of people doesn’t even know where to start. They have no idea of where the document is saved. Plugging the phone to the computer doesn’t show a “recent files” list but the whole directory hierarchy. Maybe they even used some proprietary note taking app that doesn’t create a file and they don’t realize that