- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR PHONE
DO NOT TALK TO POLICE
Your ONLY responses should be to identify yourself, and “I will not make any statements without my lawyer present.”
They only need to be 500 miles near you, if they pay for the good juicy 2G exploits 😉
A lot of countries have disabled their 2G networks (and 3G in some cases). I think 4G and 5G have a more secure signaling protocol than SS7?
It’s not possible not to it you want to visit USA. If you don’t, they’ll reject your visa or deny entry. Thr only way is to use brand new cheap android before or after ( after is better ) and resell it once you go back. Most corporations do so
So the answer is to not visit the US then.
Don’t you want to see our amazing 200 years as a nation and 500 years of massacre sites??!!?
No, but your weird obsession with ridiculously unhealthy food is somewhat interesting.
The obesity rate in Australia (and New Zealand) isn’t very far behind the USA…
Agreed.
And the causes are probably broadly similar; lack of education about how to cook, lack of time to cook, lack of education on healthy food, too much food advertising, ultra-processed foods are too common, healthy foods are expensive…
Pro tip, if you suspect the police are going to take your phone, turn it off. As far as I am aware, finger print and face id do not work on initial startup and they can’t compel you to enter your pin without a warrant.
If you have an iPhone, holding down either volume button and the side button will bring out the Medical ID, slide to power off, Emergency SOS screen. This will also disable FaceID. Password will be required to access the phone now.
Better yet: don’t use biometrics. My phone has face recognition for unlocking, but I better stick to a PIN/PASSWORD.
Or better yet just don’t use a phone at all! Can’t make you unlock what you don’t have!
Just hold Side button and one of the volume buttons to deactivate biometrics
*counsel you. I’m picturing a police officer comforting a suspect who’s sobbing with a hand on their shoulder haha.
Not counsel, compel actually. But either way, definitely not console! Ha
What’s a lemon party? I should Google it.
Election season is right around the corner, join us! Lemonparty.org
Double check this in the state or country you’re in. I recall something from a few years ago where the police could force you to give a swipe pattern and maybe pin since these items are not covered in the same way that a password is.
How is a pin not a passcode?
Maybe in some countries but in a western one they aren’t getting a pattern or passcode unless you verbally give it to them. We do know though that there is some level of capability to crack phones though.
Indent to find an article to back up what I remember and in 2020, a woman was held in contempt of court and jailed for refusing to provide a passcode. The case was later overturned.
But they didn’t get the code. That’s the quest they can do, hold you in contempt of court. Which in the US is illegal under the 5th amendment.
How can you be forced to input a pattern/PIN?
My phone has a “Lockdown” option in the power menu. It usually makes it require the pin and fingerprint won’t be available until unlocked again.
You can destroy it completely, no way they get to the key to encrypt your files like this ☝🏻🤓
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The more comments and news I read about the US the more Orwellian it feels.
You guys really need a massive left-shift away from the omnipresent government which regulates bodies more than companies.
Where do you live?
Yes. We must know where they live so we can shit on their country to make ourselves feel better.
'Merica!
IDK I just had a overwhelming sense they were in the UK, which is like… way worse.
You are 66 times more likely to be killed by a police officer if you are in the US compared to in the UK.
Oh sorry instead we’re going to get fascism
The whole Western world is at this point, it’s so depressing. Even when the left seems to win democratically people like Macron nakedly abuse their authority and choose to caucus with the fascists over the social democrats.
This is what happens if you stop developing your democracy and chill on the work people from the past have started to develop
Happens all the time, if you look into history
At some point, someone is going to figure out George Orwell was actually a time traveler, and he tried to fix things with books. He had to deliver the message that way because if he just shouted in the streets the things that were going to happen, he’d been written off as a madman. Change a few details here and there… and then sell it as “fiction”…
Frankly, George Orwell is part of the problem. Aside from a brief stint during the Spanish Civil War where he supported the CNT-FAI, he spent the overwhelming majority of his life supporting the British Empire and relentlessly hating Communists (and other socialists and members of minority groups) of all stripes, to the point where even the British government told him to chill the fuck out because they were allied with the Soviets. His books aren’t immensely popular in extremely right wing countries because they have a left wing critique of government overreach, they’re popular because they are anti-government in exactly the same vague and malleable way that all populist right wingers are.
I have been to a few spots over there and it is crazy how different culturally it is. Nothing is away from politics and cops get called fot eeeeverything.
does this apply to other countries
You have to suspect, I fear. At least, those exploiting tools are very expensive. So there is this little roadblock. On the other hand, a lot of this money goes to an Isreal based company…
What if the country did not support israel and does not recognize it
Mark my words.
For many of us, this is a “No shit Sherlock” moment.
But in 10 years, we will have young people going “Uh what really?”
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
I bet I dossed my pseudonym like not even a day after creating 🤣
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
Mine isn’t, go ahead and look it up. You won’t find my name anywhere in the internet.
Here it is encrypted so only you can read it: >!John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt!<
Woah that’s my name too
Hey what the heck? How did you get my Lemmy password?
All I see is *******
Hunter2
This meme is 20 years old now, I bet there are kids repeating it who weren’t alive when it was first made and don’t even know where it comes from.
Well, bash.org is gone, so…
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Hey! That’s my name too!
Yeah I remember the early days of the internet when no one used their real name and we had relationships with dozens of people who we had no idea where they lived and what their real names were.
It seems quaint, but I kinda liked it like that.
Its still like that on discord. Have no idea what one of my closest friends name is, but he really loves opossums and Minecraft!
That was like the biggest thing i learned in computer class, that i already knew in 2002 or so. Later myspace became a thing, and everyone had a myspace name. Then facebook and some people used their real name. Then facebook asked you for your phone number, and i thought: well, that’s silly, who in their right mind would do that. Turns out the answer is everyone.
They even give them all phone numbers from all of their contacts linked to real name (even those who don’t have whatsapp)
What a database…
They exactly know who knows who and how connected people are. Nearly everywhere in Europe. Don’t know about US, I think there is more iMessage?
I don’t see what the difference would be in 10 years.
I don’t think 90% of people, especially “young people” would avoid doing this already. It’s already a major awareness/compliance issue, and not at all a “no shit sherlock” moment.
But what did you have in mind that will be different in 10 years? Paricularly for young people.
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Just save a picture/scan of it in whichever secure password manager you use. It’s good enough for most uses.
Seems like the cops should now be worried about civilian phones exploding and now might consider shooting anyone that tries to hand them a phone /s
All this makes it sound like police are giving you a bunch of time to respond and addressing you politely.
I mean, I agree on the principle. Don’t just hand your phone over to… anyone, really. But the game becomes very different when a guy with a gun is hassling you over it.
This is why I set up tasker to lockdown my phone under certain conditions, such as: getting disconnected from Bluetooth (like when my phone is separated from me and my watch, my headphones, or the car), getting disconnected from WiFi (like when it’s taken from where it’s supposed to be), getting a slight jolt from the accelerometer (like getting thrown to the ground or even just a swift tap). My phone may get locked down a bunch during day to day stuff, but at least I know it will lockdown automatically when it matters.
For iOS. You can just hold down the lock and volume up button and it will require your passcode. 5x lock works too but I feel the former is easier.
You can show your wallet with your phone locked. Settings > Face ID & Passcode > Allow access when locked > Wallet
For Android:
- Open Settings
- Search for “Lockdown”
- Select “Show Lockdown option” from the results, or the result that most resembles that.
- Enter your pin if required.
- Tap the associated slider to enable Show lockdown option
Now when you hold your power button, you get a “lockdown” option that disables biometrics and forces you to enter your passcode for the next unlock.
Particularly useful for me, as I have my phone set up to always be unlocked if my watch is close enough (maybe stupid of me), but I can force lock it at any time.
Also relevant:
On some phones you won’t get anything when searching for “lockdown” but you most likely have it, it’s typically under Display > Lock screen > Shown lockdown option.
I appreciate you.
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Or you could just hit restart on the phone and at least on android it asks for the code first before enabling finger print or face ID.
That’s pretty much how it works on iOS too as far as I can tell. Nothing boots up until you enter your pin
On iOS 18 there is a power button in the top right of control center (you have to hold it)
If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we’ve seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that’s been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I’d still trust fully off more but that’s easier to do covertly.
Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
Additionally, with the Pixel 9 holding down the power button no longer turns it off, you have to press power and volume up at the same time to get to the power menu.
That can be changed in the settings
I had no idea… thank you! It’s always a crapshoot if I take a screenshot or get into the power settings. So bizarre.
power and volume down does screenshots
Power and Volume DOWN would make infinitely more sense for “power DOWN” function.
not particularly
There’s usually a hardware level power off function for when the device freezes and stuff. Can usually hold the power button for ~10 seconds will power off the device without needing to look at the screen
Holding the power button for 1 second also opens the menu.
I use KeyMapper to map “long press of the lock button while screen is locked” to the lockdown/secure lock action
My country has made it illegal to not give your keys.
What county is this, so I know to avoid it?
UK
Edit, source: https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/prosecuted-for-your-password/
Can’t I just say I forgot my pin? They can’t prove I don’t have a shit memory.
That only works if you’re rich
Classic quality Land
Good luck https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-25745989
You can use that argument but it will depend on if they believe you.
How can they prove guilt? Innocent until proven guilty under English common law, right?
It’s not about guilt. It’s about whether or not you know the password. In most cases not knowing the password will be deemed improbable because the chances are extremely low. You’ll have to provide a scenario where it becomes probable, and said scenario must be deemed probable as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000
lol
Nah, can’t be, they said it was a European one and the UK voted to no longer be part of Europe. /s
Incidentally, the European court for human rights said that that law violated the ECHR convention.
The UK said “yeah, so what?”, which since they’ve left the EC it’s legally right, but it’s not a great outlook when you’re told your laws violate human rights.
A lot countries have this now.
Even for a number of countries where it’s not technically enshrined in law, police can still effectively do it anyway, by detaining you for as long as they like until you comply.
The solution is to simply shit yourself, without breaking eye contact, while under their custody to assert dominance.
Some European one.
Sounds like it’s time for the deniably encrypted phone.
Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.
But aPpLe CaRe AbOuT pRiVaCy
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people’s heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
Not always.
If you’re not white, it is ALWAYS.
but black people are free practice targets to them
in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like “obey lawful commands” after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver’s license for traffic stops. That’s usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don’t wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don’t wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
The litmus test for whether something is a lawful order is to ask what will happen if you refuse. If the penalty for refusal is your arrest, say that you would prefer not to but will comply under threat of arrest. If it actually wasn’t a lawful order but you complied to avoid arrest, you’ll learn from a lawyer and get to sue over that.
As somebody else noted, driving is a privilege, not a right; if you’re pulled over for a traffic offense, you’re obligated to hand over your license and other related documents as requested depending on the state, probably registration and proof of insurance. If you don’t, then in many states it’s assumed that you were driving without being licensed to do so, and you’re probably going to jail.
On the flip side, if the cop asks to search your vehicle, you can tell him no. Don’t stop him from doing it anyway, just reiterate that you don’t consent to it and fight in court. There are some situations (like you’re under arrest and your car is being inventoried and impounded) in which they don’t need your consent to get in your car. Probable cause also gets them access to your car without your consent.
If you’re asked to do a field sobriety test, just refuse. Same for a breathalyzer. They’ll probably take you in and have you use a lab machine at the station, but that’s preferable to their bullshit games if you know you’re not doing anything wrong. Make quantitative science be the only evidence. Don’t drink and drive in the first place and you’ll be fine on that front.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to produce it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
Then people giving this sort of practical advice should explicitly say that lest someone get arrested for failure to present a license or whatever.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
I have seen a video of police playing basketball with the community, problem solved?
I’m 99% sure that you’re kidding, but a shitload of people actually think like that. Decades of copaganda in TV and movies weren’t for nothing, and now social media is full of it. The 80s was saturated with loose cannon cops who get results and it convinced people that sometimes it’s okay to violate rights. Now it’s cops doing tiktok dances or flipping water bottles to convince people that hey, they’re regular people just like me, and well, golly gee, I’m not a fascist so how can I possibly believe that they’re fascists?
Have one involuntary interaction with a cop and your view will change. The cops primarily target brown and/or poor people, so it’s no wonder that the vast majority of thin blue line dipshits are financially comfortable honkies who’ve never had the cops target them.
Sidenote: I’ve always chuckled at the people who have both a thin blue line bumper sticker and Gadsden flag bumper stick/license plate. Basically a billboard that says “tread on those ones, officers” but they’re always the same people claiming “I don’t have a racist bone in my body!” Okay, but only because bones can’t be racist; it’s your brain that’s racist.
i absolutely am. I’m also just jaded at this point and don’t have the patience to put into words what you said. You’ve been hitting the nail on the head this whole thread.
Humans are top dog because of two things, sweat and communication.
We’re nothing without communicating, and you’re doing a killer job at communicating these issues. Keep being you, homie.
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
Not something I expected to look up today Context
what is wrong with this world, wow.
in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense
There’s nowhere in the US that is true without reasonable, articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio)
explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights.
You really don’t need to do that unless you’ve already started answering questions, but it is good practice.
Keep in mind that the cops don’t have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It’s not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I’ll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Sure, if they have any.
I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him.
Yeah the footnote from that case was that he started answering questions and then clammed up later. For some reason that doesn’t work.
It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog
FYI thats illegal (US vs. Rodriguez)
being arrested while they conduct their investigation
Detained*
They can’t detain you in the US for the purpose of conducting an investigation
…what? That’s the only reason they detain you…
They can in a few states. Delaware, for instance, where the law provides them two hours even without having to clear the bar of reasonable suspicion. This is of couse blatantly unconstitutional, but it’s still a state law.
Thank you!
“what’s a phone?”
“I don’t know why my fingerprint isn’t working” (biometrics are disabled)
“I don’t remember my passcode” (it’s a pattern input field)
“The guy at the phone place changed it for me”
“It’s never really worked right.”
“There’s no Google on it tho.” (What does this even mean?)
“Who do you need to call anyway?”
“Can’t you just use your own phone?”
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you’re Black - get shot for “talking back”
input the wrong password like 5 times to lock up the phone then say its muscle memory and you don’t remember the password numbers
iPhone tip to require password to open:
- Hit lock five times
or
- Hold lock & at least one volume button
(Edit: ahh, this tip’s been given several times now, only new info is that either volume down or volume up or both will work)
This is how you go to prison.
you can lie to cops but not feds
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
And skin color
My wife, a person who passes for pale white, refused to allow a police officer to investigate her car after a speeding ticket. I wasn’t here. Her car apparently "matched a description " but they had nothing. She told me they spend another 15 minutes having her sit on the shoulder, then let her off.
I drove with my family through the south. Had two kids in the car. I’m also brown. No reason to be pulled over, but I did have plates from Ohio since it was a rental. Shitty cop said there’s a lot of folks “in his parts” that smuggle drugs using rentals and kods and demanded I open the trunk. I kept saying I’m trying to visit my family, I got kids in the car. 20 minutes with a crying kid, In frustration, I relented, showed him the empty trunk.
Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I’m not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
Edit: Just want to say this mostly pretains to United States law and similar legal structures. This advice is not applicable everywhere and you should research your countries rights and legal protections.
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
You can be polite and decline consent without resisting. “I do not consent to any searches or seizures”. If it’s taken from you illegally then anything they find is inadmissible in court. If it’s taken from you legally, ain’t shit you can do anyway.
Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn’t protected by local laws:
Ask if they have a warrant and if they don’t then take your phone oout and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you’re not handing over any devices.
If they seize it without a warrant then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion then you won’t have much luck.
In the states, they’ll just accuse the phone of committing a crime and take it anyways
In 2015 they took a black man’s car and he took them for 1.25 Million.
Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
A: It’s always shut the fuck up Friday.
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
Mobile youtube links, gross
Sounds like someone could use some more shut the fuck up Friday in their life 😘
Disable biometrics
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it’s not obvious tha its been wiped.
Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
*especially if you’ve got nothing to hide.
