Maybe you should google how to think for yourself, mother fucker
*I’m not talking about MMOs by the way, y’all don’t wanna see my fully unhinged, 
- tier rant about that fundamentally misguided genre of WoW-clones
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I’m going through a terrible time and am feeling compelled to share my aggressive thoughts 
Meta-gaming is a fucking blight, death to America
Do not enjoy games the way you like. REPEAT, YOU ARE ENJOYING YOUR GAME WRONG
They’re not enjoying the game, they’re placing themselves within a meaningless skinnerbox of interactivity.
I assume this is satire? You could describe all gameplay that way
I would say ‘unproductive skinner box’ rather than ‘meaningless skinner box’. But that’s most hobbies.
Listen, I try to play any crpg and they have a billion options with no way to tell what’s good or not and I get choice paralysis. Just give me a fucking build already
30 skills but you have no idea which ones will actually be checked.
this was fine when i was 12 and was going to re-play the game five times but that’s not how life is anymore.
my first 6 hours of any crpg consist of me making a character that seems cool, playing for an hour, then saying “ooohhhh, but what if I…” and starting over to make a new character.
it turns into 12 hours if I make a character I really like, then I meet a companion and they’re cooler than me + the class I made. I remade my first character in BG3 this way, because I was a cool dragonborn barbarian, then I met Karlach and went “well, I’ll never be as cool as her. main menu…”
Not my fault I can build my character wrong and only find that out after 20h with no way to respec.
I was excited about the wayward realms and decided to boot up daggerfall. That’s when I learned you can totally fuck up a character IMMEDIATELY in a game lol I didn’t look up best class, but I did look up “how to not fuck my shit up right off the bat.”
Are you exclusively playing nothing but 30 year old PCRPGs because I don’t think I’ve played a game that won’t let you respec since 2002
Even then you don’t need a guide, simply become good
Dark souls is a 2011 game with no respec and with the biggest noob trap stat ever in resistance.
And yes, I suppose you can always git gud, but if gimping yourself was the point, why even level?
I do things for fun
For example, Pathfinder just came out with rules for playing as a Minotaur, which naturally run as Large (basically taking up twice the space as a Medium character), but using the mythology behind the Minotaur, also gave them feats that allow them to talk with cattle and oxen and also be very stealthy
So in my newest game, I made a Minotaur investigator who is incredibly good at sneaking around and solving mysteries on farms
Their name is Barnabas Surehoof to the party, but on the sheet it’s Cow-lumbo
You tried to use Cowlumbo as the ig name and got jossed by the DM didn’t you
Nope, I’m going to wait how long it takes him to realize the pun
I think if he doesn’t get it by the 3rd game I’ll just start doing an impression
“Oh, and just one more thing!”
There are several Investigator feats that are named after stuff from famous detectives and that is one of them!
Also, I did cut a crooked landlord in half because he is also very competent with axes
I don’t want to waste a bunch of time and I hate reaching the midgame and suddenly finding out my build is completely terrible so now I gotta start over because modern day developers love “friction” which means I don’t get to respec.
I also want to have fun and some classes aren’t fun, but you only figure out which ones are a ton of fun after a couple of hours, hours I’d rather spend doing side quests or exhausting dialogue trees or having fun.
I like winning in a game, I don’t like reading thru skill trees and planning out builds for the future, it stresses me out. I enjoy that someone else has done the work for me so I can focus on the things I find enjoyable. It eliminates choice paralysis.
A lot of games have unfun aspects that people have figured out how to effectively bypass. I have skipped so many poorly designed shopkeeper-minigames due to running a build that allowed me to make a bunch of money or the like and thus skipping some unfun aspect of the game.
I have a tendency to waste a lot of time on inventory management and min-maxxing figuring out what is the “best” by a few percent. This isn’t fun for me, but I can’t stop me from doing it. Finding a build online stops it however.
None of these things impact your experience of the game. However I agree min-maxxing and this approach to having to create “the best” character is prevalent and it influences game design. Games more and more require you run a “good” build to be able to participate in it, which then encourages meta play which then in turn encourages games to require more “good” builds.
My favourite game in a long time was inscription, because it allowed you to do busted combos and make janky cards. I wish more game designers would allow you to be op (without just giving you a “godmode”)counterpoint: im an idiot and i dont wanna have to restart halfway into the story bc i made a doodoo character
Almost no games are designed such that you cannot beat them with practically any build, and even fewer are designed so that you cannot alter that build halfway through based on one’s own determinations of what isn’t working
if you play an rpg and dont choose the proletariat because it is the best class you are a lib
My most frequent blunder in Victoria 3 is trying to rush the proles into power way too early instead of focusing on economic development and fostering the proper conditions for their rise.
Classic idealist getting their revolution crushed in the 1860s. We all have to go through it at least once .
Can’t enjoy rpgs because of this. I am a compulsive meta gamer.
stop it
get some help
I picked Decker in the crpg Shadowrun games and got THOROUGHLY shut out before I got to the first boss, I regret not googling that one lmfao
I can’t hear you over the sound of my overflowing currency tab
here are my aggressive video game thoughts:
let people have fun instead of turning entertainment into some kind of protestant self-flagellation session. you aren’t building character by playing elden ring no matter how good you are or how much you fail and try again. its ok to have a power fantasy sometimes. i hate this 4 chan attitude that you have to suffer to play video games, like games are some kind of divine test of character and willpower and value as a human. i will always play easy mode, i will never play ironman permadeath modes no matter how many streamers scream about it into a camera, dark souls should have an easy mode, sekiro should have an auto-parry, elden ring should have objective markers instead of relying on meat gates killing you until you find where to go next (i have never found the maiden i gave up after getting killed by that horse knight guy on the way to the tree right after that first camp every fucking time, fuck elden ring), FPS games should have auto-aim since twiddling a stick is nothing like aiming a gun, titanfall should have had more smart pistols. being good at video games will never translate to another skill in my entire life unless i play an FPV drone sim. if i wanted to spend my time on something that would improve myself it would not be fucking video games. don’t even get me started on multiplayer FPS games, i swear they are a psy-op to make men more toxic. competitive sports were invented by bronze age slavers to trick their peasants into training for war.
i have never found the maiden i gave up after getting killed by that horse knight guy on the way to the tree right after that first camp every fucking time, fuck elden ring)
The point of the Tree Sentinel is to set the tone of the game. In most RPGs the world is built for you and more or less caters to your success. The tree sentinel is there to tell you that the lands between are not like that and losing vigilance for a few seconds will kill you.
Also I recommend crouching and hooking as far around it as possible. If you are running past the tree sentinel or trying to fight it, you’ve already died.
I like difficult games not because I want to improve myself, but because I find joy in experiencing myself learning a system, getting better at it and overcoming obstacles. I think that’s fun. Finally beating a boss after a ton of tries is fun for me. Working out how to do these things is fun.
By removing obstacles you will, at a certain point, kind of also eliminate the game itself. Sekiro gets an autoparry, and then later an auto-strike. If you jump off a platform you get teleported to the one you were aiming for. If you get discovered while sneaking, the spotter dies. I’m not saying you’re arguing for this, but I am trying to illustrate how “make things easier” can be difficult in game design.I would even argue that Elden Ring already possesses an “easy mode”, it’s just not a literal stat increase to you and a stat decrease to all enemies. Spirit Ashes and multiplayer co-op are optional features to make the game easier, and you can also add status effects to your build without much effort which are pretty busted in Elden Ring at least. In previous games, access to these statuses were considerably more limited; now, you can make over half the weapons in the game into artery-eviscerating WMDs.
I have personally mellowed out on the whole “Souls games SHOULD be really hard!” thing because I’ve listened to the critique of others on it and I think they’re correct. The bizarre crusade against video game journalists that gamers do really gets on my nerve. Some of those journalists are right - some games should be more accessible. But Elden Ring… literally is more accessible than its predecessors? If you want it to be, it can be the easiest game that Miyazaki has made. The open world means that you can much more easily get good weaponry if you explore rather than fight bosses immediately, you can find spots to overlevel (cough Greyoll cough), the crafting system means you can apply statuses to enemies and buffs to yourself, etc. You can’t even be invaded online anymore unless you summon somebody, and even then, if you immediately start the boss then the invader is forced out of the world.
Compare this to Dark Souls 1, where you’d get oneshotted by Dark Bead users every 30 minutes if you played online, and if you decided to head down to the Catacombs first and found your way to the Tomb of the Giants at level 20, you were just fucked because you couldn’t warp until halfway through the game.
I wouldn’t regard myself as Elden Ring Fan #1. I do have a list of problems with the game, and that list was added to with the DLC; I think I was in the minority that found the DLC to be kinda disappointing if anything. But I do think that From Software is genuinely iterating towards better games over time, including in accessibility.
I agree but I also think accessibility is a weird discussion. To follow the book analogy that has been used in this thread: Rewriting books so they use shorter words and less flowery language would make them more accessible to a broader audience, but they would also lose something integral. I think it’s the same with games. Yeah super meat boy could just have a mode where you don’t die, but that’s not the story/art/whatever. Macbeth could be less weirdly written, but that’s part of it. Disco Elysium could just have an “auto win roll” button, but it doesn’t for a reason.
I don’t think games should be hard, but I also think that’s not the entirety of the argument, and it saddens me to see people reduce it to that (not saying you’re doing that, I feel like we agree).
And games like Elden Ring and dark Souls strike me as weird, because they have summons and so much more that’s meant to make the game “easier”
Players looking up guides is what turns games into Protestantism. You’re taking a creative medium and churning it into mechanical drudgery.
Some games are made by protestants though and they’re full of mechanical drudgery
let people have fun instead of turning entertainment into some kind of protestant self-flagellation session.
counterpoint: let games be difficult without whining about how they are not ‘accessible’. why should dark souls ‘have’ an easy mode? why should elden ring have objective markers? if you want to engage with the worldbuilding/actual non-gameplay parts of a Dark Souls or Elden Ring, watch a Let’s Play or read the wiki.
counterpoint: let games be difficult without whining about how they are not ‘accessible’.
Example: Nobody will argue that Hades and Hades 2 are easy games. They have an easy mode.
I’ve never turned it on, because I play these games for the challenge of pushing my Heat/Fear as high as I can.
My partner has it turned on 100% of the time, because they play these games for the story. So to speak.
The game is better for it for both of us.
I support accessibility options so that disabled people can play difficult games, just make them options and have a clear default experience. Things like the skibidi fragment system from Shadow of the Erdtree and more obviously Sekiro’s Demon Bell and Kuro’s Charm or DS2’s Covenant of Champions all show that it’s no problem to implement a higher optional difficulty setting, so why not include a lower one as well?
FWIW I do also support accessibility options so that disabled gamers can enjoy games; Elden Ring definitely does lack in things like menu narration options & audio/visual cues, as I learnt from watching my dad play (he’d have to stand and walk close to the TV every time he leveled up and once completely missed the ‘NPC has invaded your world’ pop-up and walked right into them lol; although this is admittedly more of a ‘he mounts his TV way too high and sits way too far from it’ problem but still).
I just don’t think difficulty in terms of gameplay is an accessibility thing. Like, the OP I was replying to said:
elden ring should have objective markers instead of relying on meat gates killing you until you find where to go next (i have never found the maiden i gave up after getting killed by that horse knight guy on the way to the tree right after that first camp every fucking time, fuck elden ring),
Is this an accessibility issue? The average player is not expected to beat the Tree Sentinel or even throw themselves at it continually upon walking out of the Stranded Graveyard on their first playthrough of the game. The game specifically points you towards the Church of Elleh beyond them (the very first NPC you encounter right outside the Stranded Graveyard explains how sites of grace work & point the way) and uses the sentinel to tell you it isn’t impossible to go around or go elsewhere before coming back to a difficult boss/enemy. The site of grace right there points directly towards the church. You’ve already been taught in the tutorial about sneaking past enemies. You can literally go out of your way to avoid the Tree Sentinel and encounter no other enemies (except maybe one bat, from what I recall) by going west and approaching the church from the side/behind.
Yeah the objective markers is weird to me. Imagine if Firewatch had objective markers
Oh I agree, I kind of have to assume that they were being hyperbolic as a bit. You can definitely make it to the church without aggroing anyone, you don’t even need to sneak, just don’t run right at him. That said, I did almost give up on Dark Souls 1 when I was told I could go up or down, didn’t see the way up to Undead Burg, and went into the Catacombs so I do have some sympathy lol.
just don’t play the easy mode and you can still wank yourself off about ur l337 g4m3r skillz, and also neurodivergent people or just people with less time to dedicate to perfectly mastering the art of pressing the b/circle button to the exact timing of every bosses idiosyncratic attack sequences can enjoy the media in an interactive way unfiltered through obnoxious amateur youtuber meme narration. like in any other context yelling ‘well just go read a book then’ at someone asking about accessibility options in a piece of media would be considered blatantly ableist, idfk why its different for video games.
the problem with that is that dev time is limited and they’re not going to put resources into the highest or lowest difficulty being a well designed good time because gamedev is happening under capitalism. that’s how you get tedious damage sponges or a dexterity challenge so trivialized that the mechanical design is irrelevant.
hard on purpose games are serving a market segment and asking them to dilute the niche thing they’re trying to make to cater to players who have a thousand alternatives is really weird to me. there are wheelchair accessible nature trails and we probably need more of them but no advocate would suggest building those at the direct expense of hiking trails challenging and interesting to able-bodied people, so why are people like this about games?
obviously capitalism ruins everything and i don’t necessarily blame any individual developers for a systemic issue, but with a public funded ministry of arts there would be absolutely no excuse to not have a suite of accessibility options comparable to, for example, The Last of Us 2. imagine if someone invented a new all-terrain wheelchair (naughty dog’s above average accessibility options in this metaphor) and hiking and trail running enthusiasts (gamers) harassed and ridiculed and gatekept anyone from using it on a particular trail (soulslikes). that’s absolutely ableist and its ridiculous that i have to point this out on a leftist forum.
I don’t really know anyone who wants themselves off to being good at video games. I don’t think that’s what’s being said.
Sekiros gameplay is in large part about parrying, if you remove that you’re playing a different game altogether. Same goes for not having objective markers - I dont really see how that is a difficulty question tbh. It does make it harder to navigate, but its a choice that forces engagement with the world. Firewatch did the same and to great effect. Elden Ring could have markers without being fundamentally different, but firewatch couldn’t. It’d be like eliminating the economy from Victoria 3.
Sometimes it’s not possible, sometimes it is. I think Hades has a really good way of handling difficulty
This is a pretty bad take and I hope you reevaluate your position on people “whining” about their inability to enjoy some games because developers don’t consider them at all. I’m so sorry you have you hear people complain about their disabilities and how it makes it hard for them to enjoy some video games. Really tho, this is fucked and I hope you think about it.
I think there are limits, though. If you don’t want to interact with the mechanics of the game at all, maybe just watch a lets play?
The video game Stormworks translated (over time and a community college course) into a job. Video games should not feel like jobs (MMO developers will not see the light of heaven).
That said, if you come at a co-operative tabletop RPG where everyone else is playing roleplay characters that are not min-maxed and you come with a net build that uses rules from a splat book from 1990 (I assume this thread is about RPGs generally and not cRPGs)
One of the best things about most modern TTRPGs is that even the most broken meta build is just barely better than a total noob picking abilities at random, and what really makes players effective are their choices in game. D&D5/PF2 are the peak of that type of RPG/grid-based miniatures combat game, which is why the upcoming D&D6 just pokes at the edges and fixes a few annoying things rather than trying to be something totally new.
Yeah, trap builds as a game design “thing” basically shouldn’t exist.
That said, I do have a soft spot for GURPS and Hero System et al. as well as tacticool games (and war games, which I prefer writing), but it’s clear what you’re getting into going in (if you give players the opportunity to build a bad army, how much are you going to stop them if those are the decisions you’re supposed to be making)
Well GM engagement is supposed to be a big part of GURPS/HERO chargen, to make sure that nonfunctional or inappropriate characters dont happen unless part of the campaign tone is supposed to be having fun with that.
Yeah, I think that’s generally the case (though not explicitly stated). Writing the basics of everyone’s characters should be a group effort, with some amount of buy-in from each player for each character. The idea of 4 completely independently written characters coming on the same adventure is… It feels archaic, like we’re all playing weekly D&D with completely different people and everyone has different amounts of XP etc.
In terms of exploration, combat, and character variety, Elden Ring may be the best to ever do it. It’s an incredibly fun and engaging game once you learn how it treats fights as a dance and not a DPS exchange. And of course I use all the tools it offers because I’m not a masochist and have a day job.
It is also crippled by asinine quest design, with invisible gates that trip permanent changes that may make quests impossible to complete. It’s frustrating because some quests will put markers on your map, and others will be like “Ah, I’m looking for Glup Shitto, keep an eye out for me” and you see them again 20 hours later and they give you a reward for a quest you didn’t realize you’d done.
The story is also pretty mid, and it’s hard to even understand what the story is sometimes. Who are these people I’m fighting? Why are they fighting me? What the fuck is an Elden Lord anyways? Why do I want to be one? It’s a world of rich lore snippets that, if you’re lucky, sometimes piece together if you bother to read item descriptions and have the right items.
I’d you’re on steam I recommend using shift-tab to keep a journal of quests and people
you aren’t building character by playing elden ring no matter how good you are or how much you fail and try again.
A certain type of person needs to keep perpetuating this myth because video games are the only things they spend their time on and they need to convince themselves that they aren’t just wasting that time.
For me the most fun part of RPGs is learning how all the systems interact and exploiting them to make my own OP or goofy build. Kinda like putting together a puzzle through experimentation and playing the actual game where the puzzle is the real goal. Of course, a lot of games don’t actually have deep enough systems to play around with and exploit.
Some people simply don’t care about the puzzle aspect and just want to play the actual game in the most frictionless way possible, that’s totally fine too. There’s no right or wrong way to have fun, judging people for not having fun the exact way you do is childish and kinda reactionary tbh
I do this for old RPGs since a bad spec basically means you’re fucked and have to restart. For example planescape torment basically only has 1 good build and its a narrative game anyway so wanted to experience the story unimpeded. Fallout 1 has some super wrong builds you can do.
But yeah sure for modern RPGs its hard to softlock them like old ones so there I apply cool factor instead. Modern RPGs are cool cos I can actually roleplay what I want rather than have to adhere to a games completely broken and obtuse mechanics.
To be fair most games don’t make failure fun. In a real life TTRPG, a character with low skills in everything is probably more fun than some god character with perfect 20s. It makes for interesting stories. But video games have a hard time replicating that, I guess
There are very few games where you can go wild with your skill points and still make it through the game in an interesting way. Disco Elysium is a good one. There is no good build and min/maxing is detrimental since your inner voices will start feeding you misinformation at higher levels.
I really like Dark Souls 2 as well. Equip two shields, power stance with daggers, use a whip, anything’s viable if you want it to be.
Also I tend to use lightning stuff in Kor! I really like how all the element type things are good, but lightning is just so cool. I hope you feel better soon goadstool :(
In a real life TTRPG, a character with low skills in everything is probably more fun than some god character with perfect 20s.
Depends on the game. Playing something where a giant portion of game time is taken up by combat (D&D, Pathfinder, Lancer) and being obviously and noticeably worse than every other player just feels bad.
Yeah and it also comes down to your DM and how much of a combat focus they have. Back when I was a GM for shadowrun my players were encouraged to meticulously plan every combat encounter, sometimes so well they didn’t have to fight at all. That’s always fun.
For sure, I’m running a cyberpunk game right now where they’ve cleared most missions without getting caught, and every time they’ve gotten into a firefight has been a disaster ending with someone on death’s door. If anything, the combat-oriented solo (who got killed by a lucky headshot) feels underpowered in that game.
TTRPG MinMaxer “optimum build” nerds get in the sea. It’s a cooperative game, assholes!
i don’t get RPGs where more than half the ruleset is about combat, most the class features are about combat and then people get pissy when some players come up with characters that are very good at combat, seems like all the incentives are fucked; i hate those kinds of games so i never play them, but if 95% of the features are about combat, what are you supposed to do? make a fighter that sucks shit?
this tbqh, i simply just don’t play ttrpgs where most of the mechanics are slapping big numbers onto a wargame minigame, can’t have minmaxers when there’s nothing to minmax
We had one of those minmax guys at a call of Cthulhu table once and the keeper grinned widely every time he tried to shoot at the unspeakable horrors. If anything being the big musclehead with a revolver did save our asses in some hot chases against mermen and when i was busy turning half my body into tentacles. By the end of it he was having fun too, and being a minmaxing asshole actually meant he was roleplaying his character. Just because combat isn’t the be-all and-all and can only solve minor problems when you deal with the eldritch. So when shooting was the answer he would have us covered and when it wasn’t he would just get us into trouble just like any good himbo would.
Having the guy specifically at the table, after some bad experiences with DnD really opened my eyes that you CAN actually make lemonade out of lemons if the rules themselves allow for it.
